#Content warning
This episode includes themes some of you might find uncomfortable such as death and bereavement, cancer treatment and trauma. We also discuss a government scheme for people who had been abused in care. And while we don't cover specific details or anything, the topics do show up throughout the conversation. If you want to know more before you give it a listen, you can email me at hello@lauraparker.design.
#About the episode
Lessons on designing with care from content designers Jane McFadyen and Rachel Edwards.
We discuss the principles of trauma-informed design, how stress, anxiety and trauma impact the use of services, and practical strategies for creating clear, simple and empathetic content.
We share our personal experiences with numbers and the importance of trauma-informed design when designing services for people with dyscalculia and maths anxiety.
#Episode links
#Timestamps
01:56 (1 minute and 56 seconds)
Personal experiences with numbers
Both Jane and Rachel share their personal struggles with numbers, highlighting feelings of anxiety, stress, and inadequacy.
08:52 (8 minutes and 52 seconds)
Trauma-informed design
The principles of trauma-informed design, especially safety, trust, choice, empowerment, cultural and gender considerations, and collaboration.
24:02 (24 minutes and 2 seconds)
Impact of trauma on service use
How stress, anxiety, grief, and trauma significantly impact how people use services, affecting their cognitive functions and decision making.
08:52 (8 minutes and 52 seconds)
Practical applications
Examples of applying trauma-informed design in government services, like simplifying processes, reducing cognitive load, and providing clear instructions.
48:54 (48 minutes and 54 seconds)
Numbers in services
The challenges of presenting numbers clearly in services and the need for trauma-informed approaches to make numbers more accessible.
57:42 (57 minutes and 42 seconds)
Support for designers
The importance of psychological safety plans and support systems for designers working on trauma-informed services.
01:08:36 (1 hour, 8 minutes and 36 seconds)
New book: Designed with care
Rachel and Jane discuss their new book, Designed with care: Creating trauma-informed content, which provides insights and practical advice on trauma-informed content design.
#About Jane McFadyen
Jane is a senior content designer. She is currently the design lead for bereavement and care digital services for the UK government. She's passionate about using research, evidence, and empathy to create simple and clear content design for people dealing with really tough things.
Jane has worked to raise awareness of the impact of dyscalculia and low numeracy and is now exploring how using a trauma informed approach can also help.
#About Rachel Edwards
Rachel is a senior content designer at Content Design London. Her interest is in creating content that people can understand to support them through difficult processes and circumstances.
This professional interest became a personal one as well when her teenage daughter went through a cancer diagnosis and treatment in 2024. Rachel has spoken widely about the importance of considering stress, anxiety and trauma when we design content, and has just finished editing a compilation of essays on the topic. Designed with care: Creating trauma-informed content is available now.
#Transcript
Laura (00:00:00):
Before we get started, I just want to let you know this episode includes themes some of you might find uncomfortable such as death and bereavement, cancer treatment and trauma. We also discuss a government scheme for people who had been abused in care. And while we don't cover specific details or anything, the topics do show up throughout the conversation. If you want to know more before you give it a listen, you can email me. My email address is hello@lauraparker.design.
(00:00:28):
Hello and welcome to the Accessible Numbers Podcast, a show about designing services for people with dyscalculia and math anxiety. I'm your host, Laura, and I'm a content designer with lived experience. Right then. Introducing my first guest, Jane McFadyen. Jane is a senior content designer. She's also the design lead for bereavement and care services for the UK government. Jane's Focus is creating clear content for people dealing with really tough things.
(00:00:59):
I'm also joined by Rachel Edwards. Rachel is a senior content designer at Content Design London. She's particularly interested in creating content that people going through difficult circumstances can understand. And this professional interest became a personal one when Rachel's teenage daughter went through a cancer diagnosis and treatment in 2024. We talk about a lot in this episode, including what trauma-informed practice is, how stress, anxiety, grief, and trauma impact how we use services, how to apply a trauma-informed design approach to presenting numbers, and more importantly, how you can take care of yourself if you're experiencing stress, grief, and anxiety at work. We also discuss Rachel's new book that Jane collaborated on called Designed With Care. For more on how to present numbers clearly visit accessiblenumbers.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn or Bluesky by searching accessible numbers. Enjoy the episode. Jane, how do numbers make you feel?
Jane (00:01:59):
Yeah. This is a really hard one for me to say to everybody, but they make me feel really stupid. They made me feel ashamed, uncomfortable, quite often panicky, always very stressed. And it doesn't matter how hard I try with numbers, they always make me feel that way. They always make me feel like that 12-year-old at school when everybody else understood them and I really didn't. And I felt alone and excluded and other. And I'm always thinking that I'm wrong. So yeah. There's a lot to unpack there with me and numbers, but that's pretty much it.
Laura (00:02:36):
Thanks Jane. Rachel?
Rachel (00:02:37):
Yeah. Actually pretty much the same. I get really anxious with numbers. I was pretty good at school, but then when I was about 12 just numbers and me did not agree anymore and I struggled a lot. I nearly failed the year quite a few times. I did fail quite a lot of tests, so numbers just immediately make me feel really stupid and really exposed. And actually one of my common anxiety dreams is where I'm trying to dial a phone number and I keep getting the numbers all wrong. So yeah, I feel a lot of what you said, Jane. This might turn into a little bit of a number therapy session.
Laura (00:03:12):
Thank you so much for being honest. I have been open about how numbers make me feel in the past, and it's a very vulnerable position to be in. I think because numbers are everywhere. And when you say numbers, people think one to 10 and they forget it actually means time and dates, and even the simplest thing like cooking all involve numbers in some way. And I really appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty today, and I hope that people listening will get a lot out of our chat.
(00:03:46):
Now, I have seen in the last couple of months, and perhaps Rachel for a bit longer now, you've been working on some really cool trauma-informed design stuff. And for our listeners today that have never come across trauma-informed design, I wondered if we could just maybe define that for people who are new to the term.
Rachel (00:04:04):
Yeah. We can define it, but what we're always keen to say is that it's not a checklist. So there isn't one list of things you do and suddenly you're doing trauma-informed design. So trauma-informed design and trauma-informed practise grew out of working with people in a face-to-face setting, so counselling, therapy, that sort of thing. It's where it comes out of. And it's generally thought that it came out of work with veterans, but we know that roughly 70% of the world population has experienced some trauma. So it's relevant to a huge group of people. Sorry, I'm throwing numbers in already.
Laura (00:04:49):
It's fine. It's good.
Rachel (00:04:50):
But to work in this trauma-informed way, various organisations have produced lists of principles, and the original one comes usually from the US. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Department. And it's got six principles, and I'm going to try and get them all right. So there's safety, trust, choice, empowerment, cultural and gender considerations, and collaboration. That's not the definitive list because some of them have slight variations on that, and other organisations will have developed them and use them for their own use. But the idea is that when you are working with people in this sort of setting, these are the things you need to consider and there are different ways of doing that. So what I've been really interested in is how do we bring those principles into content design, which is not a person-to-person interaction. It's words usually on a webpage or a video or a podcast like this. So how do we bring those things into a one-way communication?
Laura (00:05:54):
That was brilliant. Thank you very much. And Jane, same question.
Jane (00:05:57):
Yeah. I think for me, I work in government and so often our services have to deal with an audience of quite literally millions of people from all different backgrounds, all different reasons why they're interacting with government. And I actually work in bereavement and care, so we deal with some really tough situations with people and they're coming at us at a point of need. And it's really important that we make sure that our services work for those people. And I think as content designers in government, we really try and make sure our designs are clear and easy and simple to use for those reasons that I've just mentioned, that we're dealing with millions of people. Very often at a point, they don't have a choice, they really do have to interact with government to do the thing they need to do. So that's all baked into our principles in terms of a profession for content designers in government, which is great.
(00:06:54):
But what I think is really interesting is very often our services, particularly in bereavement and care, we're actually trying to help people that are already vulnerable and already dealing with really difficult things. And so I think that trauma-informed design is pretty much baked into the approach that we use when we're using content design. Particularly in DWP Digital where our services are. And that's very much about being really empathetic with our users for services. So for bereavement, for example, researching with bereaved people to understand exactly what their needs are, what works for them in that situation, and more importantly, what doesn't work and what to avoid in our designs. And so using those principles that Rachel's talked us through, what we've found is that the designs that we're already using in government can actually help us to do that in a trauma-informed way when we're really considering the user, the impact, the effect, what will work, what won't work, and taking away any undue stress or anxiety through them interacting with us. So I'm really interested about how it aligns with really vital services that not just DWP provide for people, but across the board in government really.
Laura (00:08:14):
You said some really key stuff there, which was things around what to avoid and what users don't need. I think sometimes when we're doing user research or we're looking more broadly at UCD, we tend to focus on only user needs and perhaps not so much on what they don't need. So a really important point there to make. Thank you. So you're both content designers. Can you give me an example of how you've used trauma-informed design in your work? It can be something you're currently doing or something you've done in the past.
Rachel (00:08:47):
Yeah. I'm going to give you a bit of a long answer here I'm afraid. I first came across this idea of trauma-informed design when I was working on a government scheme for people who'd been abused in care as children. And the team that I was working with there, they were using these trauma-informed principles explicitly. They were woven in from the alpha stage right through to delivery of the project. And we knew we were designing for a group that had experienced trauma. So we were really aware of these and we were also ... I don't want to say lucky because that is not the right word, but we knew that the people coming to the service had experienced trauma and there were certain things in common with their trauma as well. So that was a really intense introduction to working in trauma-informed principles.
(00:09:41):
And I remember saying to somebody at the time, this is really important work for content design. And they said, "Well, but only in certain settings. This isn't relevant to somebody who's changing a gas supplier." And I agreed with them and then I thought about it after and I was like, "Actually, you're wrong because you just don't know where the trauma is and what is going to be difficult for someone." And so these principles, I've used them in every piece of work I've done since then because they can be relevant in any situation. So somebody could be buying a train ticket and that could be to go on a holiday or for their daily commute, but it could also be because they're going to a funeral or they're trying to escape a dangerous situation. And those are examples of a current traumatic event that somebody is in at that moment. But the other thing is that we often talk about preventing retraumatization and retraumatization is when something happens that puts a person back in a previous traumatic event and it has strong physical symptoms and it makes them feel as though they're actually in that event again.So without sounding too flippant, a current trauma might be me sitting in a maths exam and retraumatization might be something that makes me feel like I'm back in that exam hall.
(00:10:59):
And difficulty when we start talking about retraumatization is that you never know what might re-traumatise someone. So what I'm getting at here is what's often called a trigger or an activator, and that is something that puts that person back in that previous trauma. And it's just not possible to design something to avoid every trigger because a trigger is incredibly personal. But trauma-informed design isn't just about avoiding certain words. It's about using all these principles to create an experience that's better and safer and causes less harm for someone. So a bit of a long answer, but basically since that initial project where we were explicitly working with trauma, it's come up in everything because it has to, because you just don't know where that trauma is going to be.
Laura (00:11:46):
Wow, what a terrific answer. Thank you so much. I was reflecting while you were speaking, and I think ... I don't have a maths GCSE. I've tried to reset it several times I've failed. And I think where trauma really shows up for me is managing money and bills. So you mentioned there a utility bill or something to do with changing your supplier. Now to even look at a bill sends me into this frenzy or panic, and it can be really innocent where we've received a bill and maybe my partner's opened it and left it on the table and I can just see the table format within the bill and something happens and I start to sweat or I'll just avoid it and I bury it under something so I don't have to look at it. It's just a really odd way of how trauma could come back to you at the most simplest or random times. Same question to you Jane.
Jane (00:12:47):
So yeah. I mentioned earlier that I work in the bereavement and care services and as content designers in government, there's loads of rules and regulations we have to follow so that we come across as consistent and it works as simple and as easy as possible for people. So there's a lot of style guides and design guidance. And then within services you have legal and policy requirements, and then you have just some really complex services that you have to make as simple as possible. So all of that makes a role of a content designer in government quite tricky, quite complex. There's a lot of elements even before you start to write any content even. And sometimes it's like, "Well, do we have to add more to that? Can we really add more to this overloaded role already?" But I actually think by the way that we use our designs and we're already using, we can actually do a lot of content design already that can be trauma informed.
(00:13:48):
One of the good examples that we have in DWP is the bereavement support service. And the UCD team that did research ... I might add during COVID at a really difficult time working from home. They found loads of research and evidence to actually show how to approach building a service using this. One of them was thinking about the safety and trust for people using our services at an already difficult time, obviously dealing with a bereavement. And one of the things that the team discovered was about overwhelming and how that had an impact of people using a service and how to avoid it. So we already knew that people were more likely to use a service if you can reduce any levels of concern or worry or unknowns. That trepidation if you might have. That, oh, I'm going to have to use a service and it's going to ask me questions I really don't want to answer, for example. So being really clear about what the service is for and what a person will have to do and then what will happen next is really important. And those are the principles we can use on pretty much any service. And that's really helpful to anybody regardless of whether they're experiencing a trauma or they're dealing with some difficult things. That is just actually what helps busy people. People that really need to get on and do the next thing in their day.
(00:15:15):
So I think it cuts across lots of different services and how we might use it. ut also the team really took the time to think about the whole journey. They were asking people to go on and to think about what they were asking people to do and the steps and the questions. And something you mentioned before there, Laura, was the things that we didn't have to ask, the things that we would choose not to do, and the things we decided not to ask users to do as a task is just as important as the things that we are asking them. And remove that complexity, remove the questions that aren't needed, that aren't really vital, and starting with the minimum and then building up from that as it's required.
(00:15:58):
And it's that thought process, I think going through those decisions with the team, with the wider policy, with the legal to make sure that we're still collecting what we need to do in a service. We're building the service in the right way, but we're really thinking about what's the minimum we need because then that has a huge impact on any user. But then it becomes more nuanced for those people perhaps involved in past trauma because we're just asking as little of them as possible and that's a good thing and that helps everybody. So that was really interesting to really reduce what we were doing in the service, getting the minimum needed.
(00:16:36):
And then also making that path through a service as simple as possible for people. So if they weren't eligible and we knew that as soon as possible, to make them aware of that and to give them another journey, give them an onward path somewhere else that would be helpful and not waste the time by going through a service and finding out at the very end it wasn't for them or they weren't eligible. And that is about decision making really early on in the question set. So that becomes a really valuable thing that anybody can do in a service is to make sure that we're not wasting people's time, we're not asking them questions that actually we already know that they're not going to get what they perhaps started thinking they might be eligible for and guiding them onto a path that is more helpful for them moving forward.
(00:17:24):
And it also reduces any unnecessary cognitive load for people, but also the emotional impact of asking questions, spending time sharing information, even just spending time doing the thing has a tax on people in terms of the time out of their day, the time to taking to concentrate, that kind of thing. So if we can avoid doing that, then that's really helpful.
(00:17:48):
And the other thing, course, which we do a lot in government is thinking about the physical process of asking one thing on a one page. Sometimes people can say, "Yeah, but that means we've got 200 pages in a service." But I've seen people go through those questions super fast because they're super clear and the finding the way through a service as simple as possible. And again, that helps everybody, but it also helps people so that we're not putting unnecessary load onto them. It's as simple and easy to get through.
(00:18:25):
Actually, one of the things they did the bereavement service was make the sections they presented quite small and that enabled them to put in a pager, screen, if you like, before each section called in this section. And it explained what the questions were going to ask. So we had an opportunity to warn people what we're going to ask, but importantly explain why we're asking. So if we think back to those principles of being safe, engendering trust with our users, and being clear, it helps create that atmosphere that we're being really open, we're asking these questions and this is why. And so people knew what they were going into and that made a big difference to our users.
(00:19:09):
And in user testing, this was really interesting because we had some people that were quite reluctant to move on because they didn't know what they were going to be asked next. And once they understood what were going to happen and what questions they would be asked next and why that fear and that hesitancy was much reduced and for many people just didn't exist because they felt safe and they knew what was going to happen. So those are the things that we didn't service that really adhered to the trauma informed principles, but they also help everybody using the service as well, which I think is a really, really interesting point for content design as a whole, really.
Laura (00:19:49):
Yeah. Of course. While you were talking there, the design principle, and I think it's called do the heavy lifting for users, came to mind. Do the heavy lifting for users is all around if you've got information on users or people using your service, don't ask them for it again and again and again. Do the heavy lifting on the back end. Make sure that information is stored in a central place where other systems and things can use it, and you can reduce the touchpoints and questions that you have to ask. And I think you hit the nail on the head with the confusion as well around questions. We think of questions as being these one question simple answers. Sometimes a simple question simple can be absolutely difficult to answer.
Rachel (00:20:40):
Yeah. This is one of my pet peeves. This idea of easy questions and simple questions. And when I was working on that government service, we thought we were doing just that when we were designing this form and we put the easy questions first to ease somebody into it. And so we asked them for the easiest questions that we could think of. And if I asked you, what do you think the easiest questions you can ask somebody on a form are?
Laura (00:21:06):
I would say their name. Where they live.
Rachel (00:21:09):
Yeah. Name and not where they live, but date of birth.
Laura (00:21:14):
Oh, date of birth. Okay. Yeah.
Rachel (00:21:15):
So we started them off with name and date of birth, and we thought that's a nice easy question for you to start with. And when we tested it, we found that for this particular group, those were actually some of the most difficult questions we could ask because a lot of them didn't know their actual date of birth or they had their names changed and records have been lost. And so these were actually incredibly difficult questions. So just that idea of easy questions. And again, this is where numbers in particular can come in when you think of those verification tests that they make you do, and they're supposed to be easy things to prove that you're a human. And it will be something like six times six and they go, well, that's an easy question. Well, what if that's not an easy question? What if that is something you struggle with? So yes, let's get rid of that idea of easy questions.
Laura (00:22:04):
Love that. Definitely. Okay. How does stress, anxiety, grief, and trauma impact how we use services?
Jane (00:22:13):
So this is really interesting. So as I mentioned before, we research a lot with bereaved people. We do that so that we really understand how that can affect the way a person can interact with our services. What we know is that dealing with a death is always unique to every single person and every single person's situation. But it generally can cause a range of different emotions including anxiety and stress. But it's often a much more complicated mix of many, many more. And these can include things like shock and anger, despair and fear, guilt, helplessness, overwhelm, regret, and even relief for some. And all of these emotions, of course, can affect a person's capability to think or do things. And this can affect them in many different ways and can show up in people as absent-mindedness, confusion, a lack of concentration or distraction and even lowered self-esteem. And what we know is that any one of these things will have an effect on how somebody interacts with a service or do a task or even their ability to make an informed choice. And what we know from research with bereaved folk is that very often they experience several of these emotions all at the same time, as well as dealing with the practical things of dealing with the death and the friends and family and work and everything else that comes along with it. So it's quite impactful indeed.
Laura (00:23:51):
Thank you, Jane. Rachel?
Rachel (00:23:53):
Yeah. There's a technical answer to this that stress and trauma provoke stress hormones that can then impair ... Well, they do impair your cognitive function. And that means it's harder to read, to understand information and to make decisions. So your body and your mind actually change when you're undergoing periods of stress, anxiety, trauma, grief. And this is relevant in the moment of trauma, but also again, if someone is re-traumatised. So those hormones will flood your body again and have the same cognitive effect.
(00:24:28):
I've talked about this a lot in the course of my work, but just to talk about myself for a bit, I have gone to actually living what that feels like. My daughter was diagnosed with cancer and suddenly I was living this experience of what happens when you are undergoing stress and trauma and trying to process information. And to put it simply, my brain just stopped working. I remember in the first couple of days I asked a friend Google pyjamas for me because my daughter needed pyjamas, and I tried to put it into Google and the search results came back and I couldn't process it. It was just too much. I couldn't filter, I couldn't take it in.
(00:25:11):
After a week or so of being in the hospital, I was going down to the ground floor where there was a little shop and there was a partition up where the shop used to be. And I was with my son and I said to him, "Oh, they've closed the shop." And he looked at me like I was losing my marbles and said, "Well, no. Look at the sign." And there was a sign and it said, "The shop is still open. Go this way." But that was too many words. My brain just could not take that in and couldn't process it. I would also ask the same things over and over. And this was partly because I couldn't take anything in. But it was also because I wanted that reassurance. I wanted to hear the answers over and over.
(00:25:52):
So if you think of that in terms of our content and what we need to do, that simplicity, that clarity, boiling it down as short as possible and as simple as possible was really important. And I've made the distinction a couple of times about the moment of trauma and retraumatization. And I think we need different things at those different points too. So when we're talking about trauma-informed design, we also bring in things like empowerment and collaboration and support, and the actual moment of that initial first weeks in hospital. Those weren't the important things for me. It was all about that clarity, that safety, and that trust. The support options, the opportunity to collaborate on things that came later. I couldn't take them in at that point, both for practical reasons. I couldn't leave my daughter to go phone a helpline or join a support group, but also I just wasn't there yet and I needed to establish some of that safety and some of that control before I could start looking at those things.
(00:27:00):
So at the moment of trauma, I would say it was good content design principles, clarity, short sentences, bullet points, lots of white space. Those were all really vital, and they really helped someone take in and understand information. And that doesn't mean you can't give people information because obviously we needed it. And I remember getting a book from the Teenage Cancer Trust who are absolutely amazing. And it's a big thick book. It's a few hundred pages. So you would think that goes against everything I've just said. But they had set it out with lots of bullet points, with lots of white space with headings so you could easily find things. And both my daughter and I thought this book was just amazing. So it's not that you can't give people information, you just need to give it to them in the right way.
(00:27:47):
And having choices and having options are really important. And one thing in particular to think about when you're designing a service is around timelines and having timelines that allow for trauma. So it might take people months or years to do a thing. And so you need to let them know if they can do that, if there are set time periods that they have to meet. When we were working on that government scheme for children who'd been abused in care, there were no official timescales because we knew that some people would maybe want to whiz through this and get it done, and other people, they might be able to answer a question and then they'd put it away for six months.
(00:28:27):
So it's really important to let people know what those timescales are and what those options are. And choices around what support too. So some people might want a phone line, some people might need the information just in writing because they don't have an opportunity to phone somebody. I think back to when I was in my daughter's hospital room, I couldn't call up somebody. Sometimes I didn't want her to know what I was looking at. So having different choices of whether you can chat, whether you can email, whether the information is just there and clearly presented, I think are all really important things to think about when we were designing those services.
Laura (00:29:05):
Fantastic. I have been following your journey since you started to talk about it and some of your suggestions. I also saw your talk at Accessibility Scotland a few years ago, 2023. And what you did then has really shaped how I do content design now. And I think sometimes when we are working on services that aren't specifically about trauma or getting help for trauma, that type of trauma informed design thinking doesn't come into it. But as you've just illustrated brilliantly, you can be doing something as simple as shopping for pyjamas. And if you are experiencing trauma in that moment, it's very hard to do and you need to lean on people and things like that to help.
(00:29:54):
You mentioned there about clarity, especially around medical information. Now I have my own medical trauma and I also have to ask the doctor or whoever it is I'm speaking to say to me several times and what it is and if I'm taking medication, dosages. So they need to tell me exactly when I need to take this medication for how long and how many times a day because I have read labels on packaging that haven't been as clear, and I've been in a situation where I could have been harmed or I could have been not receiving the right treatment for my needs. So definitely around clarity I think it's so super key when it comes to ... In everything, but definitely medical for sure. I just want to thank you again for being totally real and honest, and as you have done online as well with your blogs and talks on LinkedIn, and everyone should go and follow Rachel and Jane after this conversation. So this is the Accessible Numbers podcast. And I wanted to ask you, do you think that people with dyscalculia and math anxiety are overlooked when it comes to trauma-informed design?
Jane (00:31:10):
So I think many people are unaware that numbers can be a source of trauma for many, for a lot of different reasons really. A lot of it to do with education, school. There was interventions for people if they pretty much early on seemed to have a problem with reading, where it seems to be more sociably acceptable and maybe screened for in schools where if people found out to have issues with reading, it seems to be addressed much more earlier on so that not always, but very often, there's support there. It's identified and it is just part of the educational journey that somebody's in. I've had that in my own family with dyslexia where people have been screened and been supported and been able to carry on with their education. But when it comes to numbers, it's very often written off for people where, "Oh, you're just no good with numbers." I'm rubbish at maths and that literally defined my whole experience at school. And it seems to be more acceptable that people just don't understand numbers and therefore people do slip through the cracks and aren't getting the support they need and it's not screened for at school still to this day. And that was my experience as well.
(00:32:34):
But that had an impact of many, many, many years later. In fact, only about two years ago of realising that the problems I've had with numbers are actually because I have dyscalculia. And it didn't matter how hard I would try, I would never improve my understanding of numbers. But my social experience has always been that I didn't try hard enough and I wasn't clever enough and I was stupid. And that has had an impact and has caused trauma. And it's only now I'm starting to realise and look back at my experiences and my workarounds and the fact that I have paved a career completely away from numbers, chose my university course based on the fact that I didn't have to have maths GCSE. All of those have built who I am today, and I found workarounds and I found ways around things, and I've understood things the hard way and only really told my husband how badly I didn't understand numbers until I realised it was a thing. I've got more support and actually I'm more open about it to help raise awareness.
(00:33:40):
And throughout that whole journey, maths and numbers in life is still the same. I still have to deal with them. They still cause me trauma. I still don't understand utility bills. And they still cause me anxiety every time as well Laura, where I see a bill where I have to pay something, my first reaction is panic and stress because I won't understand it until I sit down, have somebody with me talk it through. That's like a daily occurrence to my experience. And as a content designer, and even before I was a content designer, as a web editor looking at the content on websites for many, many years, we always looked at the words, we looked at the white space, we looked at the design, we looked at how we could best write for the web as it used to be called. And we've come a long way since then with content. But I don't think we have with numbers. And I don't think people appreciate actually by just making a responsive table that's accessible and has lots of white space around it and has got headings and rows and it looks accessible and it meets the needs of most, those numbers still don't work for a lot of people. Which is why obviously our work in this dyscalculia and raising awareness about the accessibility of numbers. It becomes really important.
(00:35:06):
And I'm only really realising now the impact of numbers and how that triggers stress. But by following trauma-informed approach to design, we can actually help with those issues. We can think about ... We mentioned earlier about taking away the stress and anxiety for people doing the heavy lifting for them. So we talk a lot about ... Especially in government, about codes and putting in numbers into systems. And the information we already know about a person will get the system to do the heavy lifting. Play back the information we already know. Don't ask the user to put in that long reference number again and again and again, if we can play it back, if we already know the information. And that helps everybody. It also helps people with traumatic responses to numbers, but it also helps everybody using the service.
(00:35:56):
And I think it's understanding how what we do already in accessibility combined with the approaches we use for good design for user-centred designers and thinking about trauma-informed principles and how we apply them, there's synergy all over. Making content safe and trustworthy for people is actually making content really simple and easy to understand. But that also means that it's easier to translate to different languages, which then helps people be more included and it's more accessible. So thinking about how it cross-cuts across all those different things that we do every day as content designers actually makes what we do really valuable, but it also makes it more impactful as well for our users.
Laura (00:36:44):
I have a very similar experience to you where I struggled with maths and numbers chronically at school. And some of my most horrible experiences were at school and actually with adults. So when it came to trusting adults and talking to adults around this dyscalculia, what it means to me, what my experiences is, I found that incredibly hard. The charity national Numeracy, that they suggest that nearly half of UK adults will struggle with numbers at some point. And I don't think people really understand how big a ... Well, I don't certainly. How big a number that is in terms of all the different ways, whether you're experiencing grief, whether you have dyscalculia, whether you're just having a bad day, all these things can impact how you understand and interpret numbers. And it's so valuable that people start to think around numbers, designing with numbers in their content, in their design. Just because the amount of people who could be helped by this is massive. Rachel, do you think people like me and Jane and yourself missed out when it comes to trauma-informed design?
Rachel (00:38:00):
Yeah. I think so for a number of reasons. Like you, I still feel anxious about math. One of my worst childhood memories was being called out by a teacher when I was 10 years old in front of the whole class because I didn't understand long division. So that's one of my childhood mini traumas. But like you say, it's not just about people who have a recognised difficulty with numbers, and we know that that recognition is fairly new to you. There are a lot of people who like us, will have struggled with numbers and were just called a little bit thick, or not trying hard enough. But if we think back to what stress and trauma do and that impaired cognitive function, these numbers often appear in times of stress. So we're thinking of things like bills, and as you've already mentioned medicine, dosages, benefits, just normal finances, timetables if you are needing to get somewhere by a certain time. Distances. Also, things like escapes.I talked briefly before about escaping dangerous situations, but numbers will be really important for a number of reasons in those situations.
(00:39:14):
So I think the thing is that if you can't understand numbers, if you're not given that information in a way that you can use it, process it, work through it on your own, that is disempowering. And that is the opposite of trauma-informed design principles, which are supposed to empower people. So if we're not doing as much work as we can to make those numbers clear and understandable, reduce that anxiety, reduce any additional stress or trauma, when people come across those numbers, we are disempowering people. And that is working against what we're trying to do with trauma-informed design.
Laura (00:39:52):
My local hospital uses numbers and letters as instructions on how to find the right section in the hospital, so they have radiology 2B. A few months ago, I went into the hospital and I asked for a department and the receptionist said, "Follow the signs for 7F." And I remember standing in the reception area and I was looking, and above all of the corridors were labelled with a number and a letter. And I think to myself, I think someone's tried here to make this experience better, but for me, I had to physically ask somebody to take me to the right place because I just couldn't understand what was meaning of it. I actually tried to follow the signs for 7B, 7F, whatever it was, and I got halfway between the reception and the place I needed to be. And then I completely forgot what number it was I was following. I was like, "Is it seven?" Sometimes numbers can look the same. So the number seven and number four look very similar to me. And so I completely forgot what number or letter I was. So I walked back to reception and I was like, "I'm really sorry. Can someone there escort me? Because I can't get to the place I need to be."
(00:41:22):
And it's just a really good example of how insignificant someone thought that number would be but to me it's huge. It means walking into a hospital and feeling confident I'm going to the right place on time. Time is another trigger. I think being places on time. Someone who's chronically late to a lot, because I really struggle to understand and interpret and read time means that whenever there's something to do with time or there's a time element to something which happens to be an awful lot, I find that my brain just doesn't work and I get obsessed with the time. Obsessively checking my watch, my phone, checking if my watch on my phone is the same time. Checking the time of the appointment. Highlighting it, if it's a letter. All these things just compound. And on top of that, following instruction based on a number. It didn't feel good. So I think this is why it's important to have these conversations with people like yourself with lived experience of how numbers show up in services. And I guess, do you have Jane, another example of how numbers have shown up in a service you've used before?
Jane (00:42:40):
Yeah. We all love an inaccessible timeout, don't we? When there's a number counting down to something. Whenever you're trying to book a flight or a hotel or room or any of those services, they just put them on there as a match of standard now I think. Often I give up rather than have to endure watching the numbers count down on my screen. I think also as well, it can work both ways. When we've had a time expectation of how long something might take in a service, weirdly, I find that quite helpful. So you've got a time you've got to do something right, and you have to do it. You've got half an hour spare. I'm here. I will do it now. But if that process takes at least an hour, I wouldn't know that when I start that process. So if there's some time expectation on the beginning of a service, I find that quite helpful for me because I know it will take me a bit longer.
(00:43:44):
I know how much time I have personally to be able to spend doing this thing. So I can understand my space and how long I've got. But without any of those warnings, and this thing ends up being twice as long as I thought, and then I can't complete it, and then I'm stressed because I need to do the thing and I haven't got the time, that in itself becomes quite traumatic because I beat myself up about it. I should have known. I should be able to go faster. I should be better. And then, yeah, I flip back to the teacher making me stand up in a maths class and telling me off in front of everybody else about how stupid I was and how many red marks there was in my book. And that all has an impact on the rest of your day and if you actually go back and have to use that service again.
(00:44:34):
And one of the things actually we found on one of our services when we actually put a time expectation in, it helped people be able to plan. So dealing with a bereavement for example, there's a tonne of things you have to do all at once, probably for the first time very often. And you don't know how to do them, so it might take you a bit longer. So very often people dealing with a bereavement are really, really busy. They've got so many things to do. They've got friends, they've got family, they've got to sort out a house, they've got changes, they have to tell utilities and banks as well as dealing with an actual bereavement and the impact that has and the support and grieving. So to tell them that a service will take you about 15 minutes to complete is actually quite helpful.
(00:45:21):
I wouldn't create content that says something like, "It's a simple service. It only takes you 10 minutes." That is not the way to do it. That is very much making a judgement on how long it might take somebody, if it's simple or not. Again, we've talked about this in numbers, it's not simple for everybody. Everybody has different challenges, different circumstances. So just be really clear about how long something might take, so then somebody can then fit that within their lives and be able to make their own judgments and their own expectations of how long it might take them.
Laura (00:45:54):
That's great. Rachel, how do numbers show up in vital and emergency services or just services generally?
Rachel (00:46:01):
Yeah. I think we've talked about a few of the things. So dates, times, medicines. Phone numbers is quite a big one. There's this expectation that you will remember what the emergency phone numbers are, what the less of an emergency phone numbers are, what number you call if there's a power cut, that sort of thing. For me, I just can't. There's no way. But they're everywhere. They are a part of how we communicate. So I think I would just try and make the plea to understand that they aren't easy for everyone. And to really look at ways that you can make it simpler and make it clear. And we've talked about things like appointment times and dates, and Laura, I know you've done some work on formatting those to try and make them clearer, which has been really helpful. But yes, timetables. For me, it's things like benefits and salaries. That can be really difficult to understand as well. And all of those things, if they're hard to understand when you're relaxed and just looking at your payslip on a normal day, imagine what they're like if you're going through something really difficult, either related to that paycheck or not.
Laura (00:47:15):
It's funny you mentioned payslips. When I used to get a payslip from my job, and it used to be the paper and they had that seal around the outside. Do you remember?
Rachel (00:47:24):
Yes.
Laura (00:47:25):
I never open ... I have a stack of these payslips like a metre high because I could not look. I would just pray that whatever I was being paid, I was being paid, and it was fine. I never checked. I never opened them. And in fact, a couple of years ago, I actually underpaid tax, I got hit with a massive tax bill, and now I'm slowly paying that back to HMRC. And yeah, I didn't realise. I didn't know. I don't look because it's so alien and it makes no sense. I just see zeros and numbers and formatting that makes me feel sick to be honest.
Rachel (00:48:05):
Well, it's a bit of a double whammy, isn't it? Because there's the actual stress of opening it and looking at it, and then there's the knowledge that you're not really going to understand it anyway so why would you put yourself through that?
Laura (00:48:17):
Yeah. I've been meaning to do this thing actually where ... I think I might do it. To do an open sourced redesign of a payslip and maybe I could make this something that people can come along to and help out with. Because there must be, there's so many different organisations that pay people. There must be a way to format to explain what it means when you get paid. What are the deductions, how much should that be, what to do if you think it's not right? There must be a way to make payslips more accessible. So I think maybe if we did a crowdsource thing-
Rachel (00:48:53):
I'm here for that.
Laura (00:48:54):
Oh, that's wonderful. Can we apply a trauma, trauma-informed design approach to presenting numbers clearly in our service? And if so, what might we do? I'm going to come back to Rachel for this if that's okay.
Rachel (00:49:11):
Yeah. I think so. I think, as I said at the start, trauma-informed design isn't a checklist. So I can't say, do this, do that, and it'll all be great. But if we think about these principles, and the big one being for me around numbers, empowering. So we can do that with things like clarity. Think about my poor brain when I was living in hospital. I needed as much clarity as possible. And I know, Laura, you've been working on this, and Jane, you've been working on this too. But I think it's just about acknowledging and being aware. We said earlier on, no easy questions. So let's get rid of those assumptions that numbers are easy, that if you don't understand the numbers, it's a you problem. Let's think of it as a design problem and try and find solutions that work and test. That's what content designers will say to everything. And let's maybe not call it a test because for me, that puts me right back in that exam hall, writing my trigonometry. But we need to just get rid of our assumptions. Try and empower people, try and support them. And that's I think, how we can apply trauma-informed design principles to numbers.
Laura (00:50:18):
That's great advice. Thank you. I think my tip would be explain what a reference number is, if I should keep it and what to do with it. Honestly, I used to have a little book of reference numbers. I think Jane, you had something similar where you would write down all these reference numbers, pin numbers, et cetera in a book in case you forgot them. What we could do is service creators, content designers is if we ever have to show a reference number, please ask yourselves, ask your senior leaders, is this a reference number that's useful for somebody, for a user, or is it a backend thing? If it's a backend thing, don't show it to a user. Secondly, tell users when they'll need to use the number. Should they keep it? What to do with it. I had a very terrible experience one time trying to get help for something, and I didn't save a reference number. The only time I didn't save one or one of the few times. And I actually had to start the whole process again because they hadn't saved it on their end. I hadn't saved it. No one had a record of what I'd done. And it was a really big ordeal.
(00:51:27):
So yes, please, if your service uses reference numbers, please tell people if to save it, when they might be asked for it. So for example, you'll be asked your reference number if you call us or if you message us. And I think for me, it just brings that anxiety right down and I won't be obsessing over reference numbers. And Jane.
Jane (00:51:51):
Yeah. I've got a great example of this one actually. There's an internal system that I use. It's part of my work in government. And it's a universal system that lots of content designers need access to. So for about seven years, every time I tried to log into this system ... And it's a complicated password, you have to renew on a regular basis. And it has to have so many characters in, special characters, capital letters, numbers, a mixture of complicated that creates this password. And whenever I put it in, I always put it in wrong. I've got it in my book and I put it in as accurate as I can, but because I can't see it, I could never check it. And I was always getting thrown out the system and denied access and resetting my password. Literally, I have never got into that system in seven years without having to reset my password every single time.
(00:52:59):
It's changed recently so that you can actually see what you're typing in. And the first time I saw that, I put it in and it worked seamlessly. And at that seven years of not being able to get into a system that I had to use regularly, all because they allowed me to see what I was typing in. And that's the difference. And it doesn't just help me who has a problem with numbers. That would help everybody. So it's little things like that that perhaps you might not think has a huge impact but once you are actually doing that consultation and you may be asking people, understanding what the barriers are, then that becomes a really powerful thing. Just being able to enable that. And it wasn't a huge change. It was being able to see the password. The option to be able to see a password. So you could still have the option not to see it if you were in a public area, for example. But it enabled me to get access, and that was a huge thing.
(00:53:57):
Another thing that I find really quite powerful to be able to use services is if I'm entering a number to be able to see it actually when I'm entering it, but also to go back and change it if I've done it wrong, because I can guarantee I will get it wrong at least once. And that's because depending on what I'm going through, if I'm really stressed, I'm very anxious, if I'm distracted or busy, I will get numbers mixed up really easily and I'll put the wrong numbers in even though I'm thinking I'm typing the correct numbers in. So being able to see it is really good, I can check it. And then having that played back to me so I can check it against what I've written down. Very often I'm writing down a set of numbers or password to make sure I'm doing the right thing.
(00:54:45):
Somebody mentioned something on LinkedIn the other day about accessibility and playing back passwords. And I mentioned this example I've just talked about. Somebody else mentioned the fact that if you put in a password, sometimes a system will ask you for the third word or letter of your pin number. That just completely messes with my mind. It goes into some spiral. I don't know how to do it. Especially if, for example, the third letter of my pin number is three, my brain just can't compute. It gets really confused. And it's those things that perhaps are very every day and people don't really think about actually become a huge barrier. It's a barrier for me because of dyscalculia, but also it was a super barrier for me when I was really stressed and anxious because I really couldn't understand it then. So understanding how numbers in our designs appear and actually thinking about how we can add more context and usability so that people can see what they're entering and change it. That functionality becomes really, really quite powerful. So yeah, those are the things that come to mind.
Laura (00:56:00):
Yeah. The password reveal component has saved my life a couple of times. And same with the check your answers, especially with money. I am terrible with money. Writing the right amount of money, sending the right amount of money, paying the right amount of money. So anything that plays back. My banking app actually puts a screen in between the entry field and the payment. It's basically to check your answers, check you're sending the right amount. And that's been so helpful because sometimes I will want to pay £30 and end up paying 3000, which is a lot of money. Yeah. So something that disrupts that for me so that I can check, especially with money is super helpful.
(00:56:47):
Now, we're all designers and we're also humans and we could be designing services and going through trauma at the same time. And I think it's really important to have this discussion about how can people take care of themselves if they're experiencing trauma or if they're anxious and stressed while creating services in particular, maybe services that are about trauma. I think that's a really complex system to navigate. Rachel, what do you think? What can we do to help ourselves?
Rachel (00:57:20):
So these are called vicarious trauma or secondary trauma. They're slightly different. I will leave the technical explanation for now, but it is recognised that if you're dealing with these difficult subjects, that it has an impact on yourself. And I think the first thing that we need to do is acknowledge that we may be a content designer sitting ... I work at home. I'm quite comfortable in my living room with my laptop, but that doesn't mean that I'm protected from trauma. And this isn't just relevant to emergency services workers or frontline workers or people who are actually in the room. I was having a really good discussion with somebody about how this can show up for content designers. If you think about things like if you're doing desk research, so you're removed from actual people, but you're sitting at home doing some desk research on a topic and it takes you into this internet wormhole and you suddenly end up hearing stories that you weren't ready for or in a forum or a chat room where you just weren't expecting what you're going to get. And it can be really difficult and really damaging. So we need to acknowledge that designers can be affected by this. That we need to protect ourselves and protect each other.
(00:58:37):
And there are lots of different techniques you can use, but I think the common theme through a lot of them is connecting with other people in your team. Taking time and space to debrief after sessions to check in on each other. When I was working on that government service, we were offered counselling if we needed it, and I think that's an invaluable thing to be able to offer. But just creating time and space. We're often under pressure to produce and to do more meetings and to put our user research interviews back to back. So schedule in that space and time and actually deliberately and meaningfully check in on yourself and check in on your colleagues. Make sure that you're okay.
(00:59:23):
And if you're not, okay, talk about it. Get help. Have support in your wider team. Have these conversations before you start doing the work too, so that you've got plans and things in place and you've thought about them before the moment arises. So I think if you're interested in this work or you haven't done any of this before, it is worth reading up a bit on trauma-informed use of research in particular and just on how you might want to put in place processes in your team to take care of each other.
Laura (01:00:00):
Fantastic. I was speaking to a colleague the other day about doing content design with numbers as a person who struggles with numbers. And it never really occurred to me before then that I actually might struggle to create content or design with numbers because I'm dyscalculic. And then when I really thought about it, I was like, "Oh, that makes perfect sense." But I think sometimes content designers, I think specifically do a lot in their job, in our job. We do a hell of a lot. It's okay to not do absolutely everything perfectly. There could be things that you might gravitate towards as a content designer. I don't think that I am the best writer, but I know that my strengths lie in other areas. And I think it just admitting that to myself was really good and profound. Yeah. So you don't always have to be absolutely the best at all parts of content design to be a good content designer. And of course if you have a terrific team you can collaborate with, lean on, that's a plus.
(01:01:11):
And sometimes these people ... I've been in teams where I've been the only content designer and there's a lot of pressure. So I think there's something around understanding that maybe you're a neurodivergent designer, maybe you're experiencing trauma, maybe you're stressed and anxious and by way of working that can bring up certain things and that can be difficult to do. Jane, do you have any tips or are there any ways that you take care of yourself when you have to work on services that perhaps involve numbers or just generally services?
Jane (01:01:47):
Yeah. I'm blessed with some really amazing colleagues and a wider support network where I work. So we've got a UCD neurodiversity group so we can go and support each other. And we meet up quite regularly where we talk about maybe barriers to actually doing user centred design work as a neurodivergent person and how we can help support each other. I work with a brilliant colleague called Anna Curie is a user researcher. It was ironic really because I worked with her for a number of years and she was like, "Have you ever thought about dyscalculia and what it is?" And I was like, "No. I've never heard of it. That isn't me. That's not my experience. I'm just stupid with numbers." Because that's what I've been told all my life and been reinforced with education. And then when I discovered it and realised that in fact I had had it, she was brilliant at supporting me because she has severe ... And she won't mind me sharing this, she's very open. Severe dyslexia.
(01:02:55):
So actually what we ended up doing by default is actually helping and supporting each other. So I'd help and support her with words and content and she helps and supports me with numbers. It's a brilliant partnership, but it also helps how we can in user centred design, help each other with our strengths and weaknesses. And what you said, Laura, really resonated with me. You don't have to be the best content designer for everything. And I think that's where our communities get really supportive. As I mentioned, my experience where I work, but also the wider content community that I reach out to all the time within content and how they help support me. We are using examples and designs and things that we know that have worked. And it's a great privilege that knowing that you can do that, but also you are happy to do that. I don't think I've met a content designer that isn't happy to help each other and to share things that we know that have worked well or past experiences. We're a pretty good bunch of people and a profession as a whole to be able to do that. So I get a lot of support that way. Now I'm getting better about asking for help when I need it.
(01:04:18):
But yeah, I think also what's interesting in the subject area that we work in, bereavement and care, obviously there's a lot of trauma involved in ... We research a lot with bereaved people and we're exposed to that quite regularly as well. And it's not just user research, it's the content designers and interaction designers that are also involved in that. And sometimes the wider project group as well. Business analysts, delivery managers. They all get involved so they really understand the user, which is great, but it also opens them up to vicarious trauma potentially as well.
(01:04:55):
So what we tend to do in our area, and Anna's been really brilliant about creating psychological safety plans for people so that we routinely check in with each other. We have a process that we go through so that we make sure that we have pauses in between those research sessions that we can make sure that we aren't asking too of people. That we can and we are able to continue and it's okay to stop and it's to take time between that and to make sure that we're okay. And then it also trickles down to sharing information in the documents in the research that we have and having warnings so that we can pre-warn people about the content that lies behind them because we deal with some really difficult stuff and people might want access to our research quite rightly, to be able to understand the space a bit more in depth to enable to inform their design decisions as well. But it's about making sure that we're just letting them know this is what it is, this is what it covers, and then it's their choice to continue or not to continue. And that's all about being safe and making sure we support each other as well. So there's a lot of things that we do on a daily basis.
Laura (01:06:10):
I love that. Do you call it psychologically-
Jane (01:06:14):
Psychological safety plan. Yeah. And we can share some links afterwards for the podcast if people are interested.
Laura (01:06:22):
Oh, yes, please. That'd be wonderful. Thank you. Was there anything we didn't discuss today that people should check out?
Rachel (01:06:30):
I think the one thing I would just like to elaborate on a bit is we've talked about stress, anxiety, and trauma, and I think I do that quite deliberately for a reason because I think when we're talking about trauma, although I started by saying 70% of the world's population is estimated to have experienced a traumatic event, if you talk to people, they won't necessarily associate themselves with trauma. And we tend to use the word traumatic almost flippantly. I found a spider in the bath that was traumatic, that kind of thing. People will more easily identify with words like stress and anxiety I found in my work. So that's why I tend to talk about all three together. But the important thing is that those three feelings, situations, they will all produce those stress hormones, so they will all have the same effect on your brain and they'll make it more difficult to do the things that we've been talking about. So I think if you're talking to a group and they're not necessarily thinking that trauma is relevant to them, you can talk about stress and anxiety as well. People tend to relate to those a bit more readily and a bit more easily. So I think it's important to say all three of them are important and they're all worth considering.
Laura (01:07:52):
Yeah. I definitely hear you on that, the trauma thing. I've spoken to people who will refuse to use the word trauma because they don't think is big enough or the impact was big enough, but actually when you talk to them, the impact is huge and it affects them on a daily basis. But because they're used to seeing trauma used in a way that's global, I guess they think that what's happened to them can't be traumatic because of XYZ. So I think you make a really good point that stress and anxiety is probably words that they are familiar with and can relate to, but they could still be experiencing trauma or have experienced trauma in the past.
Rachel (01:08:32):
Absolutely.
Laura (01:08:33):
Well, then maybe you can tell us about your new book.
Rachel (01:08:36):
Yeah. Well, I've for a while wanted to write a book about trauma-informed content design, and people are starting to talk about this a lot more, which is great. So let's get some resources out there. And then as it often happens, life happened. And so I decided I couldn't write this book by myself, but also it was probably better if I didn't. Instead, what I've done is pull together 15 people from around the world. We're in Australia, America, a couple of Canadians and the UK, and we've all written a chapter on trauma-informed practises or content design. And the book is called Designed with Care: Creating Trauma-Informed Content. It covers a lot of the things we've talked about today from what is trauma, to vicarious trauma, to taking care of yourself while doing trauma-informed research. So there's a lot in there that will hopefully be useful to everyone. And we are really excited about it. And Jane has written a chapter on her work with bereavement, and we've also written a chapter together with another author on questions and how to ask questions in a trauma-informed way. So a lot of the things we've talked about today come up in the book as well.
Laura (01:09:52):
Amazing. That sounds so useful, and it does touch upon some of the things we've spoke about today, and I think it would be a great follow-on for people who've enjoyed this podcast to go out and get the book and share with others as well. Where can people find you?
Rachel (01:10:07):
I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I think it's Rachel Edwards Scotland if you're looking for me on LinkedIn. And that's probably the best way to get in touch with me. You can also find me on the Content Design London website, so I think contact details are there.
Jane (01:10:25):
Yeah. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well. So yeah, it's just Jane McFadyen on LinkedIn.
Rachel (01:10:32):
And you're wanting to find out more about the book it's designedwithcare.org is our website for the book.
Laura (01:10:38):
Oh, fantastic. Thank you. Well, just a big thank you and I feel quite privileged to be able to have you on and have you come and speak to your experience. And then hopefully lots of people will learn from that and take that forward. It's been a smashing conversation.
Jane (01:10:58):
Yeah. I just love spending time with people like-minded who just want to do so much better in content design.
Rachel (01:11:07):
Thank you so much for having us, Laura. It's been great, and I'm pleased that we could all share a little bit of our maths and numbers anxiety. And actually, I feel quite hopeful that there are more things we can do and that we're starting to have these conversations.
Laura (01:11:22):
If you think you might have dyscalculia or maybe you've been recently diagnosed, you can find help and advice for children and adults on the Dyscalculia Network, search Dyscalculia Network, or visit dyscalculianetwork.com. If you want to work with me and make the numbers in your service accessible visit lauraparker.design. Big thanks to Steve Folland for editing and producing this podcast.