A deeply personal chat with Peter Cherry, the chair of the adults with dyscalculia advisory board, about dyscalculia in adulthood.
We discuss what dyscalculia is, the stigma around not having a maths GCSE, gender stereotypes in maths education and the need for greater awareness and acceptance of dyscalculia.
Links to resources we discuss.
#Timestamps
00:04 (4 seconds)
Introduction to the Accessible Numbers Podcast
01:35 (1 minute 35 seconds)
Personal experiences with dyscalculia
04:20 (4 minutes 20 seconds)
Understanding dyscalculia
07:38 (7 minutes 38 seconds)
The impact of dyscalculia on daily life
14:27 (14 minutes 27 seconds)
Co-occurrence with other neurodivergent conditions
21:56 (21 minutes 56 seconds)
Diagnosis versus self identification
27:15 (27 minutes 15 seconds)
Dyscalculia in the workplace
35:26 (35 minutes and 26 minutes)
Masking dyscalculia
43:07 (43 minutes and 7 minutes)
Creative coping strategies
54:43 (54 minutes and 43 seconds)
Advocating for support
01:02:00 (1 hour and 2 minutes)
Resources and the dyscalculia community
01:09:00 (1 hour 9 minutes)
Conclusion and contact information
#Episode links
#About Peter Cherry
Peter Cherry is a passionate volunteer for the Dyscalculia Network, where he serves as Chair of the Adults with Dyscalculia Advisory Board.
His drive to raise awareness and advocate for dyscalculia has led him to write about his experiences in letters to the Guardian, in an article for Frame Magazine, and to be interviewed for pieces on dyscalculia in BBC News, BBC Sussex and the i Paper. He has ambitions to write a book on dyscalculia. Peter works as Assistant Director at the British Institute at Ankara and holds a PhD in Comparative Literature from University of Edinburgh.
#Transcript
Laura (00:00:04):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the very first episode of the Accessible Numbers Podcast, a show about designing services for people with dyscalculia and maths anxiety. I'm your host, Laura, and I'm a content designer with lived experience.
Today I'm speaking with Peter Cherry about what it's like living with dyscalculia as an adult. Peter and I met through the Dyscalculia Network a few years ago. Peter is the chair of the Adults with Dyscalculia Advisory Board, and he raises awareness of dyscalculia by sharing his lived experience. He's been featured in The Guardian, BBC and iPaper.
We cover a lot in this first episode, including what dyscalculia is and co-occurrence with dyslexia, the unique challenges of living with dyscalculia, the ways that people mask their experience, formal diagnosis versus being self-identified, how your maths ability does not define you, and ways to support people with dyscalculia and maths anxiety at work.
For more on how to present numbers clearly, visit accessiblenumbers.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn or Bluesky by searching accessible numbers. Talking about lived experience is not always easy, and I admire Peter for sharing his personal and emotional journey so freely. I find Peter incredibly inspiring and I hope you do too. Enjoy the conversation. Peter, how do numbers make you feel?
Peter (00:01:35):
I was thinking about this recently. I think, to be honest, I've never had a positive experience with numbers. So I would say that I'm definitely towards the anxious end. It's something that I've always struggled with, and as I've got older, it's been a surprise to me that people can just hold numbers in their heads and can do what we used to call at school, which is a horrible phrase, I think, mental maths.
But that this is something that most people can do for me is a revelation. So I would definitely say it's something that makes me feel very anxious and makes me feel quite uncomfortable really.
Laura (00:02:18):
Likewise. I've had a similar experience all my life. And it wasn't really until perhaps university where I was really struggling with the numbers side of the work I was doing, coursework. It was part of my degree, which was around finance, so that was a major problem, and I didn't pass that module.
I ended up retaking or substituting it with another one because I was really struggling with it. I didn't know that at the time when I chose the course that finance or numbers would be a part of it, but it makes sense because numbers are actually everywhere and they come into your life all the time.
Peter (00:03:04):
They are, they are. Yeah. I should say from the outset, so I have dyscalculia as you've mentioned, so for me the maths anxiety comes very much from that. And I don't know if it's, well, I guess in some ways, lucky that my challenges with maths were noticed very early. So I did get, I think as much support that I could have in the comprehensive school system of the time.
But nonetheless, it's still something that causes me a lot of anxiety and I still feel elements of shame about it. I don't think as much as I did when I was younger, but there's a lot of shame around maths, I think, because as you say, it is everywhere. And when you're talking about, you mentioned your degree, but I think also professionally, so many jobs involve money in some sorts, like budgets or whatever.
And so the minute you mention that you struggle with maths, you can just see internally people's alarm bells going off because of that. So there's a lot to unpack there.
Laura (00:04:14):
Especially since I didn't have a clue about dyscalculia until three years ago. So I wasn't diagnosed as a young child or anything. It wasn't until I randomly came across a presentation by some colleagues and they were doing a presentation on maths anxiety, and then they mentioned the word dyscalculia and what that was and I really identified with it.
Speaking of, let's talk about what dyscalculia actually is.
Peter (00:04:47):
It's interesting you mentioning you only discovered it three years ago because unfortunately it is a learning difference that should have a lot more awareness. So dyscalculia in a nutshell, it's a common and persistent learning difficulty, specific learning difficulty, which affects people's understandings of number.
And it's important to say here as well that it crosses all age range and abilities, so it has no relation to intelligence. And it can occur to anybody regardless of age or background. Common difficulties and challenges for people that have dyscalculia are number sense. So that means, for example, estimation can be challenging. Place value, so that's reading a number and understanding the value of it.
Subitizing, so that refers to recognising a small number of objects without counting them. So people without dyscalculia, and this is another moment when you think, wow, people actually can do that, but people without dyscalculia can often just look at some objects and understand there's three or four there, but someone with dyscalculia might find that a bit more challenging.
Another one is difficulties with what's called symbolic and non-symbolic magnitude comparison. Now, that means knowing the values of numbers. So if we drew a massive number four and a very small number six, knowing still that six is actually bigger than four is an issue. So there's that. And that also applies to numbers of objects.
So a lot of people, for example, could look at a bigger bag of oranges and say, "Oh, there's more oranges in there." For someone with dyscalculia, they might not be able to do that. And I think it's also important to say, because we're talking a lot about math anxiety as well, that not everybody with math anxiety has dyscalculia, but those with dyscalculia are highly likely to suffer from maths anxiety.
And of course you can be a real wiz at maths and still feel nervous with maths because certainly it was my experience when I was at school. There was a lot of just these spot tests and this idea that you have to be fast with maths and this idea of what's six times four or whatever. And I think even if you're very good at maths or you don't find it challenging, let's say, I think that can still cause anxiety.
So maths anxiety therefore just refers to a feeling of panic or a negative emotional or physical feeling that someone gets when they encounter maths.
Laura (00:07:38):
A wonderful definition there. I was nodding my head throughout all of that. I actually get sweaty palms and nausea, not only when I encounter some kind of equation, but if I see, for example, a utility bill or anything that looks like it's numbers in a table just makes me feel really sick. And I often say to people, "Numbers make me feel sick."
And I think that's a really weird term for them to hear, but I think actually, when I'm speaking to dyscalculics and people with maths anxiety, they have a similar feeling of this uncomfortableness just looking at numbers.
I enjoyed what you said around having a large number four and a small number six and still not being able to identify which number is larger. I think that's what you meant, wasn't it?
Peter (00:08:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Laura (00:08:32):
And then as a designer, I think sometimes when we think about an interface or we're using an application or a website, you'll often find with things like the time and date, they will use larger and smaller numbers to denote the larger and smaller numbers, if that makes sense.
So the thing I'm thinking of is there's a banking app and they put the pounds in higher numbers and the pence in lower numbers. So maybe it's 24.99 is the figure, the 24 will be in larger text and the 99 will be in smaller text. And I think it's a design idea that you would be able to distinguish easily between pounds and pence if the pence were in a smaller font size.
But actually, maybe that doesn't work for people like us because we're still not able to figure out by the size of the number exactly what the number is. So lots of really detailed things there for people to be aware of. And something that when I tell people they get surprised about is the time, telling time, understanding time, reading a clock face.
I was moaning on LinkedIn around my Apple Watch clock face. So I use an Apple Watch. It's a great gadget, it helps me do lots of things, but I actually struggle to tell the time using the watch. And in the Apple app for your watch, you have this gallery of watch faces and there's some really wonderful and wild designs, but there are only maybe one or two designs I could actually use that would be accessible to me.
I need a really clear background with really big numbers and the hour hand and the minute hand have to be really distinct from one another. And unfortunately, I tend to have to use my phone to read the time because the actual watch face isn't accessible in that way. Is that when I bring up dyscalculics and this idea of time blindness or not being able to read a clock face, people look at me, they don't know what to say.
They think, oh, everyone can learn to tell a time. I actually struggle to tell the time and whenever someone asks me, I actually just show them my wrist. I'll go, "Oh, here's my watch. Look at my watch." Because I think one thing is recognising the time and then the other thing is saying the time.
So I can look at the time and it'd be 3:00 PM and I'll go, "6:00 PM," or something different to what the time is actually. Do you have a similar experience then?
Peter (00:11:20):
Yeah, definitely. I was just thinking that is really common, and sometimes when people say 10 to or it's 10 to 2:00 or something, that for me is very, very difficult sometimes to get in my head. And I find, again, talking about the maths anxiety, I might actually know what that is, but it just immediately springs this anxiety on you and you start to doubt yourself and start to think, am I telling them the right time?
And maybe they're asking the time because they've got to go to this really important event or something or they've got a doctor's appointment, I'm going to give them the wrong time. Something like that. So absolutely, telling the time is a really big one for a lot of people with dyscalculia as is left and right as well actually.
That's another really difficult one. And for me at actually, one that people often get quite surprised about is reading numbers, particularly with large numbers. Now, for me, it's really important that you put that comma in because I find it very, very difficult when there's not a comma there because particularly if a number has a lot of noughts for me, they just kind of gel together.
I can't really recognise them, so that's really important, spacing, commas, but also just pronouncing numbers sometimes. For me, sometimes if it's written out, it's actually easier for me to then pronounce, but if I look at a number, sometimes I'll think, where's the million? Where's the thousand? Where is the hundred? Et cetera. And I think that's a really common one for people with dyscalculia as well.
Laura (00:13:01):
So I actually have people message me sometimes, and this is probably the most common question to do with numbers over 1,000, let's just say. So my advice would be to write the word million or billion because as you say, the noughts don't make any sense. And before the mobile apps were invented, I was very often overpaying for things, underpaying for things. If I had to transfer money, I would sometimes transfer too much and it wouldn't go through because I didn't have that much money in my bank account thankfully. And withdrawing, when I went to the cash machine, I would randomly get £100 out instead of £10 because I would just bash the noughts and not really understand what I was doing.
Peter (00:13:52):
I've done that before as well.
Laura (00:13:53):
Have you? Yeah, I think it's quite a common. Obviously now you can use your phone, it's a lot easier, but there are still people who do not have online banks and go into a bank and withdraw money. And it's still really important that if we think about our services and how we create content and design, if we have a large number...
Now, it is worth saying that sometimes it's unavoidable to use a large number. What I've seen some people do is have the large number and then underneath have it written out in words.
Peter (00:14:28):
I think that's a really good way of doing it actually, because I think for dyscalculics, a lot of people with dyscalculia will just find it easier if it's written out. It also helps you, it reinforces because sometimes you will just encounter that number and it can help you then realise next time you encounter it, okay, this can help me understand where it is as well.
I think you also hit on a really important point there. I feel like I've been making this case a lot when I've been talking about dyscalculia, is about finance because... And we'll talk about Dyscalculia Network a bit later, but generally speaking outside of Dyscalculia Network, most attention on dyscalculia is still very much for children, which is obviously extremely impot.
But children do come on to be adults. And as I said, with that definition of dyscalculia, this is something that is persistent. It's not going to go away. And also, sometimes as well, we can think of strategies, but everyone, particularly when you get tired, your brain is less sharp. People are more likely to fall into those kinds of, I don't know, dyscalculia traps, maybe you can call them and make those kinds of mistake
And when it's with money, that is something that has a real power to make someone's day and life extremely difficult. And I think just generally, there's not enough awareness of that at all, I would say. And I think there have been some really powerful and important campaigns around dyslexia, in part
I think I'm also aware of things with ADHD and with autism as well, but particularly with dyslexia. I'm just thinking about the Positive Dyslexia campaign, and I just feel like there's so many people doing great work, influencers and things who are out there. And there's this one, Dyslexic Life With Jo Rees, and also there's something with Darren Clark, but they're talking about how dyslexia affects them as adults.
It really troubles me that we don't have that so much for dyscalculia, especially when it's something that involves something like money, for example. And even you talk with people that don't have dyscalculia, that have dyslexia, and it seems a surprise to them that, oh, well, my maths over compensated or whatever.
But this is something that I think we really do need to learn from in the dyscalculia community, I think, or have more support there.
Laura (00:17:07):
Let's talk about co-occurrence with dyscalculia. So I am actually dyslexic, dyspraxic, and dyscalculic. And I have to pause before I can say those words because they're so ugly and hard to pronounce and spell, ironically.
And I think it's on the Dyscalculia Network, between I think 20 to 60% of dyscalculics will also have another neurodivergent condition. And I know for a fact that people have told me, "I'm dyslexic and I struggle with numbers, but I was told it was just number dyslexia and it was part of my dyslexia." And they weren't told about dyscalculia, which is really annoying actually.
And I think, like you said, ADHD, autism, dyslexia are very familiar with people and they do seem to be in the spotlight, which is really awesome.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:18:04]
Laura (00:18:03):
... and they do seem to be in the spotlight, which is really awesome. But also, I would love dyscalculia to be there. And it does affect around, I think I might have this stat, right, is it four to 6 million people? Have I got that wrong?
Peter (00:18:16):
So I've kind of learned this by rote because I've said it so many times. So it's around 6%, I believe, which means about two to three million. It's a massive amount of people. I absolutely agree with you. It's great that there is so much, or there is a way, [inaudible 00:18:33] say so much because obviously so many people struggle with different neurodivergent conditions. But it is great that there is more awareness for dyslexia, for ADHD, for autism.
But I do think dyscalculia is definitely the kind of poorer sister, if you like. Which again, in some ways, I've done a lot of thinking about this and I'm not an education professional, so this is definitely my own personal experience with someone with dyscalculia, but I think it also just reflects the way that maths education actually hasn't always been taken as seriously as literacy. And there's also a cultural idea that is acceptable to say, "Oh, I'm not very good at maths either," which is often a response that a lot of people with dyscalculia get. But it is very, very different.
So I just want to pick up on that, that co-occurrence, and [inaudible 00:19:32] a bit more because I think you can actually have... A lot of people with dyscalculia have dyslexia as well. But you can be dyslexic and have issues with maths because maths is also, there's language around maths. You have those kind of maths questions where there's the words that are kind of written out. So there are definite ways that you could also struggle with maths and have dyslexia.
But where dyscalculia is different is really around the concept of number. And I think that's the kind of important bit to mention. So if you have dyslexia but you don't have dyscalculia, you're more likely to be able to imagine number, be able to get that into your head, but someone with dyscalculia is likely to struggle with that. And again, I also have other neurodiverse conditions. So I was diagnosed with... Again, I don't like the word diagnose actually, because again it makes you-
Laura (00:20:34):
We'll get onto that, yeah.
Peter (00:20:40):
... feel like it's medical. So I have dyscalculia and dyspraxia. It is, I think, sometimes a hard sort of looking at where one starts and where one ends, and I think perhaps they do kind of inform each other. For example, if you have dyspraxia, you can often struggle with left and right, for example. That's the big issue. And again, that is also something that is in the maths part of the brain, I believe. I don't know if any psychologists can correct me on that. But yeah, so I do think there are aspects where they do meet and speak to each other.
Laura (00:21:14):
Well, thanks very much for your honesty there. And you said something really important, which was about diagnoses and things. That brings me onto my next point was the second question I get when I tell people I'm dyscalculic is, " Are you diagnosed?" And it's almost like a knee jerk reaction in people to ask. I don't think it's because there's any malice behind it or they're trying to make it seem like I have to be diagnosed. I think it's just in society, we're used to asking these types of questions. Now, I don't believe that a dyscalculic diagnosis is available in the NHS.
Peter (00:21:56):
No, I don't believe so. No, to me, the whole issue with diagnosis is a real tricky one. I can talk from my experience. And my experience is, as I had mentioned earlier, so I was, here again, I have to use this term diagnosed, but I was diagnosed when I was 10 and that was because... So I'm fortunate to be quite gifted when it comes to literacy. So teachers observed that there was this big disparity there. So I was doing very well in English, but I was performing to the bottom of the class. In fact, I was at very much at the bottom of class with maths and struggling to remember and work with concepts that others have been able to understand a lot more easily and were moving forward.
And that's also just another thing, just to go back when we're talking about what dyscalculia is. Maths is a subject that does build on one another. So the Dyscalculia Network, Cat Eadle, one of the co-founders always describes maths as a kind of Jenga. So it's like you're building constantly on the last block. And for someone with dyscalculia, that part of your brain will just forget that stuff quite easily, so then that makes it quite hard to progress on. So that's another aspect of dyscalculia.
So that was the case with me. However, you have, I think, also mentioned something really important, which is that it's extremely expensive diagnosis and it absolutely depends on your economic background, your financial background. And I said a diagnosis is not available on the NHS, so you kind of have to go privately and that can cost really quite a lot of money.
Laura (00:23:48):
Yeah, I think it's between around 450, so 450 pounds, between that and 900 pounds depending on who's doing it, which is outrageous, frankly.
Peter (00:23:59):
Exactly. Exactly. And what makes this even more kind of enraging in some ways is that sometimes in the education system, to get that kind of dyscalculia properly recognised and supported, it's actually sometimes dependent on that diagnosis. So there's a real kind of conflict there. So children, school and adults looking for work, therefore can't really get the support that they need without that diagnosis or get the EHCP, so Educational Healthcare Plan, which can support them at school. But also, it's so important for access to work, and this is something I'd like to come into in a little bit, which is that there's a real overlap between people with dyscalculia and unemployment as well.
So I found, for example, so I never passed my maths GCSE. And a few years ago, which again, is another point about maths anxiety, by the way. [inaudible 00:24:59] real anxiety is saying that you don't have a maths GCSE, particularly when you're perceived as someone that's "clever." And then it sort of really changes their view of you. And that's a source of anxiety.
But I found myself without work for a while and on universal credit. And I remember having to talk about the fact that I didn't have a maths GCSE. And I was fortunate I had someone who was quite sensitive, but I remember even still, that person was quite shocked that I didn't have it and actually put me on a course to do maths GCSE. And I had to kind of report back that I was on it. Yeah, and exactly, how do you do that? If you don't have that dyscalculia diagnosis, that will become harder.
So I would just say here as well though, just on a practical note, that if that is something you're struggling with, the Dyscalculia Network can support people if they need to get a diagnosis, as it does have a network of assessors across the UK and there is support available through them, but it's a really tricky situation.
Laura (00:26:17):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think anyone listening who's sort of feeling like I was when I first discovered dyscalculia, "Oh my God, I've been thinking all my life I've just been stupid. Oh, my brain doesn't work in that way." And you mentioned I think the word shame earlier on in the conversation, and I think it definitely, shame is the appropriate emotion to pull on here because not only do you have to admit to people, "I too don't have a maths GCSE, that you don't have maths GCSE, but then perhaps you can't do basic maths kind of things, like for example, telling time. And if you're comfortable enough to be honest to somebody and then they perhaps judge you, or in your case, make you do a maths course. That sounds terrible, I'm so sorry that happened to you. That is not something I would recommend anyone do. Just forcing people to learn maths is not going to help if they're dyscalculic.
Peter (00:27:14):
No, no. This is the thing as well, again. I remember very well the day I actually decided, and this was the Dyscalculia Network really helped me gain the confidence actually here to actually say, "Do you know what? I'm actually not going to reset my maths GCSE." So I've tried a number of times and I just got to this position in which I realised, "You know what? There's so much more to me than this and there's so much that I can do. It is a really society's issue there."
Well, I probably shouldn't say fortunately, but never mind. Fortunately, there's been a change of government. And it was the case that the previous UK government was very famous for trying to push this maths to 18 position. And the situation is still not great, obviously, and there still needs to be a lot of support and work for dyscalculia and for maths more generally. But it is a real breath of fresh air actually, not to know that that's not going through. Because I do think it was one of the most harmful policies. Obviously, I'm affected by excess maths, but it's an extremely harmful approach, which I think risked unforetold damage.
Laura (00:28:38):
Was that the policy where people had to continue to learn maths up to 18? Is that what it was?
Peter (00:28:45):
That's right, yeah. So for someone like me, for example, some of the opportunities that I've had would've been impossible. So for maths, people's brains just simply don't work in the same way. And this idea that so much of your life depends on this grade that you can get for maths, when we know...
So for example, I'll use me as an example then. So I'm fluent in another language. I've got a PhD, I've written a book. I know that there's lots of things that I can do. Yet that maths 18 policy was essentially telling me that was useless really because I hadn't passed a maths GCSE. And I know that, to be honest, I can't. Well, let me rephrase that actually. I probably can, but it would take me a lot of time. And as you get older, and this is another thing I'm talking about dyscalculia and adults, time is not on your side. You can't really stop and say, "Oh, no, I'm going to have a pause in my career," because how am I going to feed myself? How am I going to pay the bills? So that, I think, was a really damaging aspect of the last government's approach to maths.
Laura (00:30:02):
Just while we're on the subject of jobs, I do this presentation and I've done it through a couple of UK banks now. And in the presentation, I actually talk about you and I talk about that article you wrote for BBC. And I talk about how you are fluent in other languages and you are a PhD and you have a PhD, sorry, and you have written a book and how in society's eyes, you're still not successful because you don't have a maths GCSE. And the other point I talk about is how when I applied for a content writing job, I was asked a question and the question was, "How many windows are there in London?"
It was in the middle of the interview. I thought it was going well. And then out of nowhere comes this strategy question, I guess. I have no idea. And I just fumbled the entire thing, I could not... You talk about estimating and how bad dyscalculics are at estimating. Now, at the time, I wasn't aware of any of this. I just thought, "I'm stupid." And it made me feel absolutely horrible. And I think I just ended up saying a really large number.
And several years later, when I talk about that, people try and almost like... They try and understand it and they go, "Oh, well, it's just a strategy question, or they want to test how you estimate." And I just think to myself, "That is all nonsense really, isn't it?"
Peter (00:31:38):
Exactly yeah.
Laura (00:31:38):
Because if I'm going to do a content writing job, why ask me a really obscure mathematical strategy question right in the middle of the interview if you want to test my intelligence. And it goes back to that point of maths equals intelligence.
Peter (00:31:55):
Totally.
Laura (00:31:55):
And I've heard this. Sadly, my family were quite harsh on me for not having maths GCSE. I, in fact, tried to do it several times like you did and failed. And I think every time I tried to do it, it was more anxiety provoking and actually harder. But ironically I'd learned more from studying, but the emotional toll and the anxiety and shame around not passing again caused me to fail the exam again. So, like you, I was just like, "I'm not doing this for anyone." And I was just doing it for other people's approval.
Peter (00:32:28):
Exactly.
Laura (00:32:28):
I thought, "Oh, I'll get a job if I've got maths, or I'll get into a good college if I've got maths, or my parents will love me more if I've got maths." And it was just built up and it became such a big thing in my mind.
Peter (00:32:42):
Absolutely. Absolutely. I can totally sympathise, empathise, both. I should also probably just make clear as well that Dyscalculia Network, it's not Dyscalculia Network saying no one should have a maths GCSE. Of course, the Dyscalculia Network would support anybody that would want to do a maths GCSE. But I think the important thing here is that it doesn't work for everybody. It's not a fair measure of someone's ability or skills.
And I think another real positive aspect to the maths of Dyscalculia Network is bringing people together who have a similar situation and empowering them then to realise that actually they're not alone. And I think that's the thing, it is very difficult talking about dyscalculia. And I've spoken about it a lot, I know, but it's not always easy for me and I still have moments when I find it easier to talk about it than others. And I think what is really powerful about Dyscalculia Network is bringing people together who are really understanding it in terms of specialising in teaching people with dyscalculia and also other people with dyscalculia. And I think that's just such a powerful and important space.
Laura (00:34:07):
Yeah, I absolutely adore the Dyscalculia Network, and we did some work together on a poster, you may have seen, around-
Peter (00:34:16):
Yes.
Laura (00:34:17):
Which was a collaboration between government and the Dyscalculia Network, and it was all around how to design services for people who struggle with numbers. I'll link that in the description if people want to check that out. It's important to say that we're not maths bashing, so anyone who's great at maths and some of my guests on the podcast actually love maths and love numbers, and it's important to say that that's brilliant. I'm very jealous of you. And if you are good at maths, you should definitely pursue that. I think it was worth showing the other side.
Peter (00:34:52):
Absolutely.
Laura (00:34:53):
English, maths, science, there's so much resting on young people's shoulders to get all three, when maybe you're great at science and English and not so great at maths, and that's okay.
Peter (00:35:03):
Exactly. It's just an awareness of the fact that people's brains are very different and that is beautiful, that's diversity. But unfortunately, I think, my experience anyway is that society is really not at the place where it can celebrate that or accept that, I would say,
Laura (00:35:26):
When I tell people, and usually, you have to explain dyscalculia because nobody knows. So I've tried different ways like, "Oh, I struggle with numbers and numbers don't make sense to me, and I have this thing called dyscalculia," and I end up... So what a simple question, a simple question becomes a really long answer, and I go into, I've kind of memorised the definition of dyscalculia now so that I can say to people, "This is what it is." Which obviously makes it really hard to admit to people because you have to actually learn what it is first in order to articulate it in a way that's natural and feels-
Laura (00:36:03):
... first in order to articulate it in a way that's natural and feels comfortable. When I tell people, people say, "I never would've guessed that about you," "Oh, I never knew that about you," and I think it's because I've become incredibly good at masking. I just want to talk around this idea of masking, and this happens... I know a lot of neurodivergent people who also have to mask themselves. Are you comfortable sharing some of the ways that maybe you've masked your dyscalculia?
Peter (00:36:32):
Yeah, totally. I think masking is something that I've struggled with and I still do sometimes. I think what you mentioned, just to pick up on the point that you're making coming into this about people not guessing it about you, that's also something that I've really felt. And I think as a child... I say as a child; I also think I've definitely done it as an adult as well because people have seen me generally as someone quite articulate, I read a lot, I'm interested in books, I'm interested in films, interested in cultures, things like that. People just have an image of you as someone that's kind of intelligent. I mean, of course I'm intelligent; everyone's intelligent in their own way. But it then becomes this idea, "I wouldn't guess that you struggle with numbers," and they get surprised. Even just saying, "I have a learning difficulty," as well, that's also something that a lot of people find surprising.
So my ways that I've masked, for example, is I'm still very much a big user of calculators, but when I've been at a restaurant, for example, it's definitely a case I can remember where a big bill came, and someone turned to me and said, me of all people, and said, " Can you tell me how much I owe?" I was like, "Oh..." a word that rhymes with duck. I was just like, "How am I supposed to do this?" So what I literally did actually is I texted my dad and I was just like, "Please be at your phone. What is this?" So that's an example. But also I've gone to the toilet before as well and calculated in the toilet how much I've owed for something. But yeah, just not talking about what you have and on your struggles and trying to give out this image that this isn't something that... This is something that is not an issue for you.
The other thing I would say actually, this is sharing something quite personal, I guess, so I'm also gay, and I have also found when I was younger, for example, closeting. I find closeting and masking sort of go together. And I actually wrote an article about this for a magazine called Frame, which I don't think is publishing anymore, but I should dig out the article. Actually, talking about finding things easier to talk about sometimes than others, I remember when that actually went out, and it was a small publication, but I immediately felt very, very insecure because I put so much of myself into it. But in that I sort of drew this analogy, and I think it's one that works for me in that, or one that was very much part of my experience, was that there was so much of myself that I felt like I was trying to hide. And for me, they've also kind of dyscalculia and being able to have spoken to each other in a way.
So I went to a comprehensive school. I'm not a private school kid or anything, but it was an all-boys school, which was a horrible environment for me, I have to say. And one of my pet, I don't know, annoyances, let's say, I don't know, it's more than annoyance, but I'm very much against single-sex schools because of that experience. And there was a lot of bullying there, but there was also this kind of idea that maths was very much this kind of masculine subject. It was something that as a boy or a man you're supposed to be very good at. It's very logical. It's always kind of sexist, misogynistic logic. But then something which is more about kind of expressing yourself, you're supposedly less... that's more feminine or whatever, you're not supposed to embrace.
And I even remember, again, talking about this idea of abilities and things, so when it got to choosing GCSEs, I really wanted to do GCSE in drama because I always really enjoyed public speaking, I enjoyed anything kind of expressive, obviously I always enjoyed reading and all of that. But I was pushed to do geography, but there's absolutely loads of maths in geography, and I really didn't want to do it. But then I ended up doing geography, and I think I probably could have got a very good grade doing drama and would've enjoyed it so much more and it would've been a good outlet. But I remember being told, "Oh, you're clever, and drama is not a subject for clever boys." Again, it's just so problematic. Yeah, it's just so problematic. But again, this kind of idea of, again, holding things back, masking, all fits into all of this, I think.
Laura (00:41:37):
It does. And thank you again for your honesty there. I had a wonderful conversation with a lady called Priyanka about intersectionality and how... As it relates to dyscalculia, I think some people look through a lens of, "You've only got one neurodivergent condition, and then all of your life is good apart from that thing." You could be a Black, trans, disabled, dyscalculic person, and for some reason our society is built on the foundation that you can only be one of those things. You can't be more than one thing at one time. But in actuality, in reality, people have many things that happen. And as you explained so eloquently, you described being gay and dyscalculia speaking to each other, and I think that's really kind of beautiful sentiment because that's how I feel about my co-occurrence, and I suspect that perhaps other people feel the same way. It's not that one trumps the other. It's just that it can compound and make things harder to explain. So I think it's really worth having this conversation and being so open and honest for anyone out there who's feeling the same.
I actually had a really similar experience. I went to a same-sexed school as well, an all-girls school. And as you were speaking, this memory came back to me. And I think that-
Peter (00:43:08):
I was going to say, "I'm sorry for that."
Laura (00:43:10):
No, it's fine. You mentioned how maths was seen as a logical masculine thing. In my school, there was a concept of girl math. Have you heard of girl maths before?
Peter (00:43:22):
Oh, right.
Laura (00:43:22):
Have you heard of it?
Peter (00:43:22):
No, I haven't, actually.
Laura (00:43:22):
So girl maths is an expression for being terrible at maths, and it's okay because you're a girl and you're not expected to be good at maths. And I think this has kind of exploded recently on TikTok and other social media platforms as a kind of parody where people make really bad financial decisions and they'll say something like, "Oh, sorry, I'm a girl. Girl maths. Oh, I'm just a girl. I don't know maths." So I was actually told... Well, first of all, I was bullied for not being able to tell the time and being really bad at maths and being late, and more so actually by teachers and students. I was also told that, "It doesn't matter that you're not good at numbers because you're not expected to because you are a woman, a girl." So this whole kind of girl maths thing is really toxic because it kind of perpetuates the idea that girls should not be good at maths. What an interesting conversation we're having where it sounds like two ends of the spectrum... The problems are happening at the two ends of the spectrum there.
Peter (00:44:39):
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I used to feel as well that even being good at literacy, for example, almost just seemed to confirm a sort of failure. It's like, "You're not very good at maths. You're also gay. You're sort of failing in being a man," or whatever. Of course, now in late 30s, I can sort of agree that these kind of ideas are ridiculous, and the whole concept of gender and the idea that people can have particular set roles or set talents or whatever because of what they happen to have between their legs is obviously ridiculous and entirely constructed. When you get back into the mind of teenagers, this is extremely, extremely dangerous, and children. This is extremely difficult and it's something that stays with you. So I think you're absolutely right.
It's interesting as well, so in my professional life, so my job, around March time, so for International Women's Day, I was involved in organising an event where we looked at women in science and women in sport. And it was really interesting to see that directly relates to what you're saying, these perceptions that this isn't for women, for example. And I think the sort of alienation that people really feel because... Okay, mine's [inaudible 00:46:05] of literacy and being a man side, but it's also very much for women that are strong with science, women that are strong with maths. I think there is this barrier for women in STEM, for example, which you can see.
Laura (00:46:19):
Yeah. And thanks for highlighting that as well. Thinking back to the students that were really good at maths and really good at science and they were labelled as nerds, or I think there was cruel comments like, "You should wear more makeup instead of being bothered about maths equations," and it just a really toxic, toxic experience. It sounds like you had a really toxic school experience as well. I read on the National Numeracy website around how maths anxiety can actually stem from those toxic school experiences around maths, so even if you were very good and proficient at maths and you enjoyed it, because a lot of people love numbers and love working with data, they're often felt made to feel bad about that.
I actually had a message from somebody who is a physicist, and it was after one of my public talks I did, and they said, "I use maths as part of my job every day, but I actually struggle to tell the time." And they didn't disclose whether or not they were dyscalculic, but they did say that that part of them they masked and they hid, and they were expected to perform brilliantly in terms of all numbers, and so they felt like a part of them was a failure because the whole time thing wasn't something that they could control, which is really sad.
Peter (00:47:42):
It's very, very sad. Yeah. It's interesting what that person was mentioning because that's another key aspect of masking people with dyscalculia is coming to an event really, really early [inaudible 00:47:58] because they're worried about timing. And to be honest, I used to do that as well, but I've gotten into the habit now of being late for most things. But yeah, timing, that's another really big issue, that kind of sense of... Yeah, sorry to go back, I guess going back to definitions of dyscalculia, but that sense of internal time that most people seem to have, that's also something which is missing with a lot of people that have dyscalculia. So this idea that knowing instinctively what 10 minutes is, for someone with dyscalculia, they're not really going to have a concept of that.
Laura (00:48:39):
Yeah, I should really mention that. When I was trying to schedule this meeting with Peter, we got the date and the time wrong, or the date wrong three or four times. And as someone with dyscalculia trying to organise these recordings, it's been wild, to say the least.
Peter (00:48:59):
Exactly. Yeah. I did this as well just today, actually. I got an email from somebody, so I was setting up a meeting, and then they just sent me an email being like, "Did you mean to set it up on a Sunday?" And I was looking at it again, it's Sunday, so it's like 24, 25 because I will just misread. Particularly if I'm doing something in a rush or of things like tired, I will just misread numbers. And it's actually quite spooky when it happens because you're like, "I swear that was 49 a minute ago," and then everyone's like, "No, no, no, that's clearly 47," or whatever, and you're like, "Why?" It's really bizarre, but yeah.
Laura (00:49:37):
What are some creative ways, then, that you live with your dyscalculia?
Peter (00:49:43):
Well, one of the ways, which I guess is slightly strange, is so with pin codes and things like that, I have to associate them with a historical date. And sometimes, for example, at the door at work, it just gets changed randomly. Yeah, and recently, there was a recent one, without saying what it was, I was like, "I can't think of anything that happened then," so I had to Wikipedia and be like, "What happened on this day?" And then I found something, and then I was like, "Okay, now I will remember it." So I have to associate it with something like that. And same with pin codes and stuff, I always associate it with a historical date or with someone's birthday. They're the only ways that I can really memorise numbers.
Laura (00:50:36):
What a creative tip. I am absolutely going to steal that from you and try and use that in the future. For me, I think some of the ways that I deal with time is if I have a meeting and it ends and I've got a couple of minutes before the next meeting, sometimes I'll put a song on because I know the length of the song, and then that will help me to manage the time. I also really struggle to use reminders because I forget about setting the reminder. So a song, if I put it on, I just go onto YouTube, and it probably is like '90s R&B, something really-
Peter (00:51:21):
I also have this idea, three minutes, I'm like, "That's kind of a song length," right? But yeah, we had someone... It's a really nice report on BBC again, actually, someone called Rose who won the... It's this young reporter award. I don't know. Anyway, she got the chance to make a story about her dyscalculia. It's a really nice video. And in that, she talks about things by Taylor Swift songs, so she says, "Oh, it's like three Taylor Swift songs," or something. It's a really, really nice video.
Laura (00:51:53):
That's where I got the idea from, actually. I watched that video and I kind of stole that idea as well. Because I think there's an assumption that we can use technology... For example, I'm thinking calendars and calculators. I actually do not use a calculator. I find it very difficult to use. Instead, I will use a search engine to tell me the answer, so I will search the answer. So I actually don't do, probably to my own detriment, I don't do calculations, as in I don't pull up a calculator. Sometimes I use voiceover, so I will speak into the computer and I'll ask it to give me the answer.
Peter (00:52:37):
There's recently a form of calculator called the DysCalculator that's been set up. There's actually a video that you can watch on YouTube that Dyscalculia Network organised, which is teaching you how to use it. But it's still very much in its early days, and unfortunately it's not available on Apple yet. It's available on Samsung, and I know some people have found it really useful. But the idea there is to just make it more accessible to people with dyscalculia. So two of the people behind it are dyscalculia specialists who've worked with a company. It's come from Australia, actually. And on there, there's a whole kind of thing where you can choose to actually have the numbers written out, there's a lot of spacing, and it's just a lot more accessible. So that also might be one to check out for anyone listening.
Laura (00:53:31):
I did have a play with that, and I think because it's not available on Apple, I struggled with the online version. But it did look different, and I remember you could change lots of options. I also have Irlen Syndrome, which is a light sensitivity disorder, so I struggle to see things in brightness. For example, most websites are white background and black text, which is really difficult for me to read. So you can change the background colour and things. So it was called the DysCalculator?
Peter (00:54:02):
DysCalculator.
Laura (00:54:02):
Okay.
Laura (00:54:02):
So it was called the Dyscalculator.
Peter (00:54:02):
Dyscalculator.
Laura (00:54:02):
Okay, great.
Peter (00:54:02):
Yeah, that's right. I had to think then as well. And by the way, with, I was going to say, I forgot to mention this earlier, but what I think one big problem with dyscalculia as well as how it's pronounced, so I think the best thing to do is to say pronounced to rhyme like Julia.
Laura (00:54:19):
Yeah, I love that.
Peter (00:54:19):
Which is always another good one to get into your head. So yeah.
Laura (00:54:22):
Julia dyscalculia. Yeah, Julia, I'm definitely going to steal that one as well. How can people who self-identify as being dyscalculic or perhaps have a diagnosis advocate for themselves perhaps at work or maybe just generally in society?
Peter (00:54:43):
That's a really good question. I mean, the first thing I would say here is that it's really helpful to again, just write to Dyscalculia Network because Cat and Rob in particular will really support you there. And I think guiding them towards the website as well, Dyscalculia Network website, which is I think it is the best online resource for anything to do with dyscalculia. It has so much information there, and we are building the part of the website, which is about employers and advice to employers. But I also think, so in terms of providing information, I think the poster that you mentioned that you worked on actually, is also a really good source to show as well. And this is another, this is an idea from you actually, but this kind of manual of me that you were talking about I think is a really good idea.
And we've been talking at Dyscalculia Network actually about making a version of that actually, a manual that, obviously it could still be changed according to the person, but a general kind of template that you could take to an employer and say, "These are issues that I will likely have." Because another big thing to mention, again, with dyscalculia, obviously it's a spectrum. So you can have all people that are severely dyscalculic, whatever, that can look like, people who have a bit less issues with numbers, but it doesn't necessarily mean if you have dyscalculia that you can't do maths or you can't do a job that involves numbers in the same way that just because you have dyslexia, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't write something.
It just means that you need to have a bit more support. And that support can be quite simple actually. It really can just be knowing that the aspect that's about accounts, for example, is delegated to somebody else or that someone, you do it with someone or even that someone will check the numbers afterwards as well. So that's another kind of way that you can advocate for yourself by telling that to your employee. And also hopefully that will be part of this manual.
Laura (00:56:58):
Yeah, yeah, I'm actually going to be working on the manual of me.
Peter (00:57:02):
Oh, fantastic. That's great.
Laura (00:57:03):
But yeah, it's a brilliant idea. It's not my idea. I think you can search for manual of me, I think it might be a website or something. But yeah, it describes how you prefer to work and perhaps things like how you prefer to receive feedback in areas where you need support. I think as employers, some sort of tips if you would be to download some information about dyscalculia and put that information on a notice board. If you've got an accessibility empathy lab going on at your organisation, firstly, well done for setting that up. Secondly, make sure dyscalculia is visible within your organisation.
Peter (00:57:44):
Yes, absolutely.
Laura (00:57:45):
If you don't want to use the word, you could say math anxiety perhaps, or have the two. I think that would just show that you are being supportive of people. So if they're masking for example, then don't feel confident sharing, if they can see material around that they can identify with, I think that might help people to open up more.
Peter (00:58:07):
Absolutely.
Laura (00:58:07):
Some things that help me when I'm working is people being patient with multi-step processes. I don't always do things in an order, I don't know if you have the same experience, but what-
Peter (00:58:19):
Absolutely, yeah.
Laura (00:58:20):
... might seem like a rational order to someone, I tend to do things completely the opposite, that my thinking patterns are a bit different. So if you could be patient with people, if you're giving them step-by-step instructions, they might not do the step-by-step in the way intended as well. And I often find that I sometimes am late to meetings. And now my colleagues and where I work currently have been fantastic about that. And I was really honest and upfront about, in my manual of me, saying things like, "Look, if I'm late, I'm sorry. I understand that as a practise, as a professional, being on time is a good thing and I'm not intentionally trying to be late. It's just sometimes I misread the time and I may be late." And I actually list the ways that I help myself to be on time. So I have the clock with the red... What's it called the... As the time goes past, it shows in red how much time has elapsed. There's a name for the clock.
Peter (00:59:20):
Yes. I don't know what the name is, but I know the one you mean. Yeah, yeah.
Laura (00:59:24):
I'll find a picture of it. Yeah, so there are ways that I try to be on time and I make the point that I'm trying to be on time because sometimes, and I have been labelled as things like lazy, not caring and things like that for being late. And it's an area that I'm really anxious about. And sort of the third tip I would say was allowing time for reflection and note-taking, especially during meetings. So something that we didn't really talk about was the sort of the short-term memory or dyscalculia memory. My memory, my short-term memory is terrible and I seem to misremember things and misremember the order that things happen, so I prefer to take notes. So if I'm on a call with somebody, I can be quite quiet or maybe I don't respond straight away. And it's not because I'm being rude, it's just because I'm taking the time to listen and take the notes that I need for later.
Peter (01:00:22):
Yeah. And I mean particularly if that's anything numerical, like involving numbers, I just can't remember certain the things that I'll be told, figures that I'll be told, I just won't remember. And I mean that's a really, really common one. I think you've mentioned a number of really helpful things. Another organisation I've mentioned here actually is National Numeracy. So National Numeracy have a programme. I've actually done the course actually, which is Number Champions, and this is looking at people with maths anxiety, how you support them in the workplace. And it's a really, really good course actually. I really do advise any workplaces to get people involved.
So you can be a number champion and there's no maths involved, it just talks about some of mental health concerns around maths, some anxieties around maths. One thing that I would love to see, and it would be great if almost like the Dyscalculia Network and National Numeracy could work together on this, would be a course that is more specifically on dyscalculia. I think that would be really welcome and I think would be really valuable precisely for those reasons that you say. I think dyscalculia is great if you have a kind of neurodiversity kind of officer or whatever in a workplace, but dyscalculia does often get overlooked and people will mask, and a lot of people don't know that they have dyscalculia as well. So it's very important that we have that awareness. And I think a course on that would be great.
Laura (01:02:01):
Yeah, absolutely. I think just thinking about the design space as well, so there's a tonne of useful accessibility content around, But I don't really see dyscalculia being mentioned. Obviously I try myself to raise awareness and I don't want to say educate people, but just share my lived experience with people and make them aware. Like you said, people might instinctively know, "Ooh, I'm not sure about numbers, I'm anxious around numbers," but they might not know there's a word for that. There's actually a diagnosis for that. There's a whole community of people who feel the same way. So I think, yeah, definitely if National Numeracy, the Dyscalculia Network came together to do a course and if that course had an element to do with design, that would be wonderful.
Peter (01:02:55):
Yeah.
Laura (01:02:55):
Yeah, and I think there's an organisation called Plain Numbers as well, and they have, I think they're called the plain number practitioner.
Peter (01:03:03):
Oh, that's great. I didn't know about that.
Laura (01:03:05):
Yeah, I think you have to be an organisation to join, but if you happen to be so, you can get trained by them. But yeah, having something that's widely available would also be really helpful as well. We spoke through our chat today about the Dyscalculia Network, and I just want to focus in a little bit more about what's on offer. You are the Chair of the Adults with Dyscalculia Advisory Board. I think I got that right.
Peter (01:03:36):
That's right, yeah.
Laura (01:03:36):
Can you tell me about what that really means and some of the events that happen with the Dyscalculia Network?
Peter (01:03:42):
Yeah, definitely. So I think just to say as well, the Dyscalculia Network was founded in 2019 by two maths teachers and dyscalculia specialists, so that's Rob Jennings and Cat Eadle. And I think the thinking behind it was there really needs to be an organisation that was focused entirely on dyscalculia. So there are organisations that do work on dyscalculia, notably the British Dyslexia Association, but it doesn't have that dyscalculia in the name. And I think I'm an example here, and we know of others as well, of people that have dyscalculia but don't have dyslexia. And honestly, it would never would've crossed my mind to speak to them about dyscalculia. I still think there's a lot of power behind actually using that word. I mean, I know it's a difficult word and we have all kind of issues with it, but I do think there's an element of saying, "No, this actually exists. This is a distinct neurodiverse condition."
And I think for that reason, I really applaud the fact that Dyscalculia Network is out there saying, "This is the name and this is what it is." So it was founded really with that in mind and giving that kind of support there for people with dyscalculia and people that were encountering it in their jobs and in their works. And the events that Dyscalculia Network has been doing have been reflecting that. So there's a lot of training. If you look at the social media, there's a lot of training that Dyscalculia Network does to support people with dyscalculia, people encountering the workplace, teachers, parents. It's entirely volunteer led, so no one is getting any money at all for it. I mean, hopefully one day we can turn it into a charity. At the moment, it's a community interest company. It's creating that much needed space.
And the Adults with Dyscalculia Board, we set up because Cat and Rob felt very strongly that, and rightfully so, that they wanted to get the voice of people with dyscalculia, that they wanted that to also guide what they're doing. And so it is run by, there's a board which I sit on, which is experts in dyscalculia, so that's Pete Jarrett, Steve Chinn, Judy Hornigold, and Jane Emerson, Kinga Morsanyi, who's like a fantastic researcher on dyscalculia at Loughborough University. And then I'm there representing the adults. And then we also have a separate board, which is for adults with dyscalculia. And we meet regularly to talk about different things that we can do. So we've had a virtual pub night, for example, which has been bringing people together that might want to come in and talk about dyscalculia. Obviously you don't have to drink alcohol there, but it's something we've been doing as well. And there is now also a board for parents with dyscalculia, and there's also a board for tutors that are working with dyscalculia. So it's a fantastic organisation and it's been genuinely life-changing for me.
Laura (01:06:54):
Likewise. So I'm a member of the Adult Advisory Board. I think that's right as well. And if anything, just meeting similar people who can really totally relate to your experience is, as you say, life changing. You no longer feel like this is just you and your brain and you're the only person in the world. So yeah, sharing quite unique and emotional stories, it's hard to do, but it's worthwhile. And if you are dyscalculic or think you might be and you feel confident sharing, please do so because the more you share, the more people will recognise that and perhaps go seek help for themselves as well.
Peter (01:07:42):
Exactly.
Laura (01:07:42):
And I would totally recommend people follow the dyscalculia on all the social networks. I will post links in the show description as well, because we've got quite an active bunch. I don't actually use TikTok or Instagram, but I think they're blowing up at the minute with teenagers and younger people with dyscalculia as well, which I think is probably an area that still needs to be explored because we can talk about work and we talk about school years, but then there's a lot of years between leaving school and finding the career where a lot of people are feeling lost and isolated. So it's really good that there's a community for younger folks going on on those social channels.
Peter (01:08:24):
Absolutely, absolutely. I really agree. And I think it's the TikTok in particular. I mean, I also struggle with TikTok. I just find it really overwhelming, but it has been great to see that the word dyscalculia is being used a lot more, that people are also exploring that. And yeah, I mean, with more awareness, hopefully we can create solid change that will make people's lives easier and better.
Laura (01:08:52):
Yeah, well said. And where can people find you, Peter, if they want to read your work and follow you?
Peter (01:08:59):
So I am on Twitter @peterjcherry. I'm on Bluesky, I think it's also peterjcherry, actually. Bluesky, and also on Instagram as well @peterjcherry0.
Laura (01:09:12):
Awesome. Well, this has been a real pleasure to have you on.
Peter (01:09:17):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Laura (01:09:18):
Continue to do what you're doing, speaking openly, sharing your emotional journey with others, and I will do the same. And yeah, and then hopefully we can have dyscalculia trending as well as dyslexia and ADHD.
Peter (01:09:32):
Exactly.
Laura (01:09:34):
If you think you might have dyscalculia or maybe you've been recently diagnosed, you can find help and advice for children and adults on the Dyscalculia Network, search Dyscalculia Network, or visit dyscalculianetwork.com if you want to work with me and make the numbers in your service accessible. Visit lauraparker.design. Big thanks to Steve Folland for editing and producing this podcast.